Dating

Recorded March 22, 2002

Welcome and Participant Introductions

Glenda Durham:
Hello, and welcome to the American Cancer Society's Cancer Survivors Network. I'm Glenda Durham, your host. Today I will be talking with three women about being a cancer survivor and dating. As a cancer survivor myself, I am pleased to be your host today for this conversation in which we will discuss dealing with the negative effect cancer can have on relationships; the difficulties of dating during treatment; deciding if and when to talk about your cancer experience with someone you are dating; and along the same lines, we'll discuss finding ways to bring up the topic of your cancer with someone you are dating. We will talk about dealing with rejection and the dating issues that arise when you've had a mastectomy or when you have lost your fertility.

Our first guest is Cari. Cari is a 28-year-old cancer survivor, who is single and living in Illinois. Welcome to the program, Cari.

Cari:
Thanks.

Glenda Durham:
In 1994 you were diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

Cari:
Right.

Glenda Durham:
You had food poisoning that year, and while being tested the doctors discovered the lymphoma?

Cari:
Exactly. [laughs]

Glenda Durham:
Wow.

Cari:
It was quite a surprise, and I really had no symptoms other than the food poisoning.

Glenda Durham:
Wow. Well your treatment consisted of watchful waiting for seven months followed by alternative medications and then chemotherapy for another six months.

Cari:
Mm-hmm.

Glenda Durham:
You were given Rituxan?

Cari:
Yes. That followed the chemotherapy.

Glenda Durham:
And that was a clinical trial?

Cari:
It was. I was the second person ever to receive one form of that, which actually just got approved, so we were really happy about that.

Glenda Durham:
Right. So you did that for about a year?

Cari:
Yeah.

Glenda Durham:
And it worked?

Cari:
It did, and finally something worked. [laughs]

Glenda Durham:
Congratulations.

Cari:
Well, thank you. Actually, in total it was about three and a half years until I was able to complete that clinical trial and really finally have a remission.

Glenda Durham:
Wow. What a relief.

Cari:
Yeah.

Glenda Durham:
Our next guest is Carol, a single 33-year-old cancer survivor from Pennsylvania. Welcome to the show, Carol.

Carol:
Thank you.

Glenda Durham:
When you were in your early 20s, you visited many doctors trying to figure out why you didn't have your period?

Carol:
Yes.

Glenda Durham:
And they told you, you probably had AIS, androgen insensitivity syndrome?

Carol:
Correct.

Glenda Durham:
But you didn't believe them?

Carol:
No. It was partly because I didn't want to believe them, partly because they had said that the next step would be exploratory surgery. I really didn't want to be a part of that, and partly just plain denial that there was anything wrong with me.

Glenda Durham:
And you did your own research?

Carol:
After kind of being in denial for about seven years, one day I decided that I needed to really face what was wrong, and went at it with a lot of determination, and at that point I was very lucky to find a basic infertility work-up that was posted on the Internet by an infertility clinic. I used that as my Bible to go from doctor to doctor to request tests and things. And eventually the diagnosis of AIS came back again, but at that point I knew that it was wrong. I knew enough about the condition and the test results that I got back to know that that was wrong.

Glenda Durham:
So you did surgery and then chemotherapy?

Carol:
Yeah. What happened was during one of my exams with a doctor who thought that I had something called Swyers syndrome, which it turns out I did have, which was not in itself cancer-related, they were doing an ultrasound and they found a tumor, and I had ovarian cancer and had followed with surgery and chemotherapy. Yes.

Glenda Durham:
Well, congratulations and thanks for joining us today.

Carol:
Thank you.

Glenda Durham:
Our next guest is Clara, a 50-year-old cancer survivor from Georgia.

Clara:
Hi!

Glenda Durham:
Hi, Clara!

Clara:
Hi, how are you? It's great to be here.

Glenda Durham:
Thank you so much.

Clara:
Thank you.

Glenda Durham:
Clara is divorced and the mother of a 17-year-old daughter. Welcome to the program and tell us a little bit about how in 1996 you noticed your nipples were a little different than they had been.

Clara:
Yeah, it was so very strange. I had put in just hours of working and not really paying too much attention, and then just some little tenderness and decided to take a wonderful bubble bath, and caught myself locking my teenager out so that I could just bubble all the way up to my head, but they don't go away. They knock on the door and they keep knocking, so I finally let her in, and she came in and she sat down next to me in the bathroom, and she says, "Mom, I know you're in your bubble bath there, but one of your breasts looks quite different than the other one. Have you noticed that?" And I said, "No. What are you talking about? Matter of fact, get out!" [laughs] And I started to pay attention after that, and I noticed that the left breast was starting to sink inward. It was just inverting. The nipple had gotten very dark and it was just going inward. It was very, very different. I could not believe what I was seeing and it got so bad that it was very tender. I couldn't sleep on that side. So I finally went in to the doctor to have that examined after a week or so.

Glenda Durham:
Right, and you had your left breast and lymph nodes removed?

Clara:
That's correct. I had the mastectomy and I had three lymph nodes removed, and they of course were full of cancer as well. I was a stage III breast cancer. It was quite aggressive.

Glenda Durham:
Well, you had six sessions of chemotherapy and since that treatment you have been cancer-free?

Clara:
Absolutely.

Glenda Durham:
Congratulations.

Clara:
Absolutely. [laughing] Thank you.

Glenda Durham:
That's superb.

Clara:
Absolutely.

How Cancer Affects Relationships

Glenda Durham:
Let's talk about some of the problems, the negative effects that cancer can have on relationships. Cari, many people in their 20s enjoy such good health that they never think what it is like to face a life-threatening or chronic illness. What have been some of your experiences with your peers as they learn about your cancer history?

Cari:
You really know that--I think that still I am facing that, where I'm certainly better. I feel great. I look finally completely normal, but it's always with me, that feeling, that vulnerability and a loss of innocence. People my age just--they don't have that, and in a way I'm a little bit jealous [laughs]. I'd like to have that, but I feel kind of wise beyond my years, which it's a blessing and a curse. With dating, I think that it's been interesting, because for so many years I had some treatment where my hair was either gone, or I had to carry around a little tube of medication that pumped into a Hickman catheter, so it was always kind of something that came before me that signified there was something severely going on. I think when all of that kind of disappeared I sort of felt like I didn't want to tell anybody because I was just really happy to just be me! And to just be able to present myself without all of the accoutrements that kind of raised eyebrows. And so it is a weird situation to be in, and to be honest, I haven't figured it out yet. Most of my group of friends and the people I've dated recently, they don't know. And in a way I like it like that. They know me for me, but in a way I think I'm kind of doing myself and them a disservice because there are probably things about me, I'm sure there are, I catch myself every now and then, things I do, the way I think, the way I view the world that is a direct result of everything that I've been through, and that is different. So, that's--you know, it's a tough call.

Glenda Durham:
When somebody distances themselves from you after they learn of your cancer, what do you do to cope?

Cari:
Yeah, that did happen actually. When I was diagnosed I was going into my senior year of college, and I had just this wonderful boyfriend and we were going to get engaged when I graduated, and then the cancer diagnosis hit and he really didn't know how to react to it. One moment he was completely overprotective. The next moment he was just "We're not going to talk about it at all today!"--just wanting to deny that it happened. I learned that we really didn't have the same types of coping mechanisms, and it was very difficult and very sad at the time. I am actually really grateful for it, though, because it brought real big, adult issues into what was otherwise a very fun, seemingly happy relationship that probably would have gone on to be--we probably would have gotten married if the cancer hadn't happened and that it really did shine a light on how people deal with things.

Clara:
This is Clara. I'm just wondering, did he run away?

Cari:
He did. He eventually did. He stuck around for about a year.

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Cari:
And it just got to the point where we weren't getting anywhere. We certainly weren't a team.

Clara:
And what did the--was it the issue of the cancer that kept coming between the two of you, because that seems to be a real difficult point when you get to that relationship, and how we put that aside or if we're able to put that aside and have that normal relationship, quote "normal" relationship. Was that an issue with you as well?

Cari:
It definitely was, and when I had started on treatment, that all kind of--it all kind of came together then. He was so turned off by the tubes and there were just too many things. Luckily I was in a position where we weren't married. We didn't have a family. [laughs] We could end things without too many consequences. It became--to me it was more about this person handles things differently than I do and even if we laughed through all this cancer stuff--which there was really no end in sight at that point--even if we do laugh, though, it just--I saw his true colors. I'm kind of grateful [laughs] for the experience of that because I would have seen them later when there would have been a lot more consequences.

Glenda Durham:
Well, thank you. Now Carol, you had a boyfriend of nine years when you were diagnosed, and you felt that he was not capable of going through the cancer experience with you.

Carol:
Yeah. We were together almost nine years. We met in college. We both had the assumption that this was forever, and when my cancer diagnosis happened, for some reason--and I am so grateful for the insight that I had then, now. For some reason I knew, and I guess there were little signs in the relationship that just became crystal clear at the time of the diagnosis, that I knew that the period of my life that was about to start of me having this disease and having to battle it and needing to concentrate all of my efforts and needing real, true support from the people I had in my life, I just knew from history he would not be the kind of support that I needed. I think I finally realized that I was not going to be one of his priorities. And it took something like that because the relationship was so comfortable for such a long time, that it took a cancer diagnosis for me to realize that comfortable did not mean I was a priority or that I was more important than his career or himself. So, yeah. I broke up with him two weeks before I had my cancer surgery.

Glenda Durham:
My goodness!

Cari:
Wow.

Clara:
Wow.

Glenda Durham:
Has having gone through cancer changed what you look for in a partner?

Carol:
Is that directed to me? Carol?

Glenda Durham:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Carol:
Yeah, actually I just got engaged three weeks ago!

Clara:
Oh, congratulations!

Cari:
Oh wow!

[laughter]

Carol:
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's been almost four years since my diagnosis, and it really did--seeing as how I dated someone for nine years. I was diagnosed when I was 30. You know, I spent all of my 20s with one person, and from the time I was diagnosed it was the first time in my adult life I was a single person, so it definitely changed what I looked for in a potential partner. I looked--I began looking for people who were more stable, especially at that point in my life. My life felt like it was in this free fall. I didn't know what was secure and what wasn't secure. I looked for people who were more mature and settled and had a focus and direction in their life, and those were things that weren't important to me before that. I didn't focus on those things for myself, but all of a sudden I grew up a lot because of my diagnosis and my treatment, and then I began to look for people who had similar values, who had similar goals. I realized that those things were really important in the people that you have in your life.

Glenda Durham:
Well, thank you. Now Clara, some women are diagnosed with cancer after a divorce or the cancer diagnosis becomes a reason for the divorce. What kind of complications does divorce and cancer bring to a new relationship?

Clara:
It is a very, very difficult thing. I was married when I got the diagnosis, and had been married for quite some time, almost 15, 16 years, and once the diagnosis came, I needed, as we just talked about, I needed the stability of the other partner. I needed the strength of the other partner. I needed the warmth and the focus to be there in the other partner, because I needed to be able to lean on that person while I was at my weakest point, and unfortunately, in my divorce, or in my marriage, this individual was not strong enough to hang onto all of the things that we needed to go through. A total denial of what was happening to me, and unfortunately, in speaking with other ladies, we find that the other partner can go into denial, will not talk about this thing that's happening to you, won't really reach out to learn as much as possible. They want to feel that you're okay. That you were just like you were before, and you're going to be okay and you can get past this, and so they don't give you the warmth that you need, the love that you need, the strength that you need. They just shut down. And that's what unfortunately happened to me. He shut down, and he was never able to open up again. There was a huge, huge scar there after this breast cancer situation in my life. And then reaching out, and it's been a hard battle because we're talking about a divorce of almost two years now, and trying to get back into a life that's comfortable for me with someone else has been extremely difficult. And the problem being is when you get into that relationship and it's comfortable enough to confide in that person that you've had breast cancer, that your left breast is different from the right, it's a reconstruction, and all of the things that go along with being diagnosed with that cancer, sharing that with someone else. That is very difficult to do. You finally reach a point where you are comfortable in doing it with an individual, and I did get there one time, and then the individual broke down. And shut down again! Was not able to handle that, was not strong enough, was not sincere enough, was not stable enough to go the rest of the way with me, and to find love and to find joy and to find peace and happiness in who Clara is right now! And so that ended, and it's been very, very difficult to go and to--or be out there and to find someone who will say, "Okay, let's go the rest of the way. You still have a long life ahead of you. Let's find true love and share it together." That's difficult.

Dating As A Cancer Survivor

Glenda Durham:
It certainly is a tremendous challenge. Now, Carol, you were dating during your treatment. Could you describe to us a little about the relationship and why it did not work out for you?

Carol:
It was actually kind of humorous. I think I really tried to have the mind-set that I was going to keep as normal a life as possible. I think the less I changed about my daily activities, despite the treatment, the more healthy, the more normal I felt. I never wanted to give in to the fact that I was sick, which mentally worked. I think physically [laughing] it was very, very draining and probably not the wisest decision always, but for me, I needed to do it. So that meant I used to kind of have this little game I was playing when I was going through chemo, and by the time I got to the chemo point I had already--it had already been about a year and a half that I had tried other treatments, and so I was kind of [laughing] over it all at this point. So the chemotherapy wasn't--it was almost a walk in the park compared to some of the other things I had been trying, some of the other treatments. So I played this little game where I would see how quickly I could be in a bar having a drink after my [laughs] chemo sessions.

[laughter]

Carol:
Which again, probably not the smartest decision--

[everybody is laughing]

Carol:
Eventually I kind of remember being in some, you know, really scuzzy bar and popping a Zofran and, you know--.

[laughter]

Carol:
So, in any case what was interesting--I had a wig and you couldn't tell. It was the same color as my hair. And actually it was great. Everyone else would be sweating and my hair would just be perfect!

[everyone laughs]

Clara:
Mine too.

Glenda Durham:
Oh, my!

[more laughter]

Carol:
And what really was surprising though, was I certainly was not looking to date anybody. I mean I had a Hickman catheter. I had tubes coming out of my chest, and that was the furthest thing from my mind, plus I was really kind of shell-shocked from the last relationship, but surprisingly, probably because I didn't care and I wasn't looking, I had more dates--

[laughter]

Carol:
--than I've ever had.

Clara:
Gosh!

Carol:
And what was really funny is the more indifferent I was, or the more kind of coy, the more they kept pursuing. And I ended up kind of seriously dating a couple guys and telling them, and it was really a big thing to tell them. I mean I had no choice. They went to put their arm around me and I'd flinch because I was wearing a wig, and it did kind of have to come up pretty quickly.

And the reactions varied. There was one guy who--his reaction was pretty much a non-reaction. I had been hemming and hawing and telling him, "Oh, I think we should cool this." And he was saying, "Why? Why?" And finally I tell him, and he says, "Oh, that's the reason?" [laughs]

Glenda Durham:
[laughs] Is that all?

Carol:
Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, that's it. It's just cancer. I don't know, which I didn't--you know, was refreshing in a way to have someone who wasn't making this huge deal out of it or trying to treat me like a piece of china or something, which is what some, what the other men had done. But still, you kind of want someone to acknowledge [laughing] what you're going through about the, the weightiness of it, but --

Clara:
How far did that go, I mean--?

Carol:
Both of those relationships ended for reasons that were pretty much different outside the cancer. I mean, I just didn't like them. I got bored with them.

[laughter]

Carol:
[laughing] You know, regular normal reasons that you would end a relationship.

Clara:
It's funny, because I met a young man who was just, I mean, he was great. I mean, he was handsome and all of that, and we were talking and he was telling me about his last relationship, and he says, "You know, I really, I just stopped calling her. I just had to pull away from her." And I'm like, "Why?" And he says, "She had breast cancer." He did not know that he was talking to a breast cancer survivor.

Carol:
Oh, wow.

Clara:
I couldn't see beyond at that point. I led him to the door. [laughs] And then of course I talked to him once again, and I said, "You know, I'm a breast cancer survivor." And he said, "You know, when I got home I thought about the look on your face." And he said, "I knew then that you were probably a cancer survivor and now I had blown it."

[everybody laughs]

Clara:
And I said, "You absolutely did," because I knew that he could not come back and say, "Clara, I can accept you and we can go on into this relationship," because he made it very clear that the last one he could not accept.

Carol:
Right.

Clara:
A lot of men have a very, very difficult time with accepting that part of our lives. I would think at some point there should be groups where they can go and they can have support teams for men so they can understand what we are looking for and what we need from them because they really don't know what to give us at that point, what to say, how to handle it. And then of course, on the other hand, there are the other men, we have not found them yet-- [laughs]

[everybody laughs]

Clara:
--but they are out there, that's willing to give truly from the heart. But it's very, very difficult when you get to that point where you're in the relationship and you must reveal it all.

When To Tell A Date You're A Cancer Survivior

Carol:
This is Carol. I think that it probably is a lot different for you as a breast cancer survivor, because I think that maybe--now I had ovarian cancer, and so--

Clara:
Okay.

Carol:
--there was never, I never really had much difficulty telling people--

Clara:
Ah. Okay.

Carol:
--that I was a cancer survivor. I had a tendency to really want to talk about it. I really changed my life, picked up and moved, changed jobs, did a lot of different things, but it seemed like whenever I spoke about my life to someone I was dating--

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Carol:
--I had a hard time avoiding the topic until I started to sound like I was trying to hide something that I didn't need to hide in my own opinion. But the thing was, I didn't--I really found that when I would say to people, to dates, that I was a cancer survivor, and inevitably they would say, "Well, what did you have?"

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Carol:
And I would say, "Ovarian cancer." I don't know if it was either with men they thought, "Ovarian. Okay I don't want to know anything about that," or it didn't register to them what the implications of that were.

Clara:
Could be.

Carol:
So I didn't find that I had a lot of resistance that way and I would think, not being a breast cancer survivor, that that is for men kind of more in your face, you know?

Clara:
Yeah.

Carol:
Kind of more like they need to--even if they're not thinking long-term relationship, this is still something that they need to be concerned with that's going to affect them, whereas my ovaries didn't affect someone I was casually dating.

[everybody laughs]

Clara:
[laughing] That's very true because when you're intimate at that point, it is in their face.

Carol:
Right.

Clara:
I mean, your breast is different. And then they wonder, "Well, do I touch it? Do I--what?" You know, its right there.

Carol:
Mm-hmm.

Clara:
And if you're wearing a wig, oh my God! You don't have the relationship in the wig. It's going to come off! [laughs]

[everybody laughs]

Clara:
Or you take it off and you put some scarf on, and then they wonder, "Well, where'd your hair go?"

[more laughter]

Clara:
It's really, and again, this is Clara, it's tell all before you go there, and unfortunately so many of them back away, and at the same time you really have to be as open and honest as you possibly can, and pray that they will still come your way.

Carol:
Mm-hmm.

Glenda Durham:
Now, I've got to ask a question here. Given that the process of conveying the news about cancer to men with whom you may go into a relationship with has been such a problem, why not just tell them up front before anything gets moving, right from the start?

Clara:
Well, it doesn't--and this is Clara. I guess you want to--before you even reveal anything, you want to have some trust there, and you want to have built some kind of friendship, some--

Glenda Durham:
Some context?

Clara:
--trust. Yes, before you just tell all. And then when you really never truly know when they're actually at that point. At some point you just have to just tell it. And, you know, you just have to pick your moment, and it's really hard to know exactly when that moment is.

Cari:
This is Cari, and I agree completely, and I think I even have this other thing where I sort of have to feel like they're worthy of this information, and with me a lot of it is that half of them I just don't even want to deal with their reaction, or have to deal with it, or have to wonder if they're going to--how they're going to react. Or it's sort of like just kind of wanting to live in the moment, and if this is fun, I'm having fun with this person and he's probably going to screw it up [laughs] or--

[everybody laughs]

Cari:
I just don't want to--sometimes it's a lot of energy.

Clara:
Yeah.

Cari:
And, I mean, granted, it--once it gets to a certain level, of course that has to come out, but there's a--I don't know. I'm very selfish with that. I don't like it to identify me.

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Cari:
Or I want the person to get to know me as me, without any of that.

Clara:
But see, that is you. That becomes a part of you--

Cari:
You're right.

Clara:
--because it's a whole change in your whole life; your priorities, your whole world changes. So who you are is a whole new individual that takes on a whole new being. And you must be able to, I personally feel, and again, this is Clara, you must be able to share that whole new individual, so that that person has a right to say I can or I cannot handle it. But it's the level of honesty that you go into that relationship with that will either make it or break it.

Glenda Durham:
Now, let me ask you. Is there ever a good point in a relationship to talk about cancer?

Clara:
Well, since Clara's said a lot --

[everybody laughs]

Clara:
Go ahead, jump in on that. Personally, there is. There is a point where it's okay to tell all. It's hard to know exactly when to get there, but when you get there, but at the point where you do start to feel the trust of that individual, you've got to just let it go, and you've got to be sincere and you've got to tell it all. And then, it's just got to--either it's going to go or it's not. And you pick the people, and you're very, very selective, and I agree with you, you don't tell it to everybody. Some don't deserve to even hear it!

[laughter]

Clara:
I mean they don't even make it to the door, okay? [laughs] But the ones that you really do find that you start to care about, you've got to be open and honest with them. And it's a very, very difficult thing to share with another soul person, that you're hoping to be your soul person, the new you, and to pray that they stay along with the ride.

Carol:
Yeah. This is Carol. I can--I'm listening to what you're saying and I realize that--I totally relate to what you're saying, but for me the easiest thing for me to say is that I'm a cancer survivor. And even to say ovarian cancer, because like I said, for a lot of people it doesn't start--it doesn't all click into place what that means, and so it was very easy for me to tell people that I was dating on the second date, the third date, that I was a cancer survivor because it really did change my life and I don't mind being identified that way. However, it was few and far between that I would get into the fertility issues with and those are big issues.

Clara:
Oh, yeah.

Cari:
Yeah.

Clara:
For sure.

Carol:
Yeah. And that's the identifying part of it that I am very--I keep very close to myself. Even with the man I'm with now. It was over the course of the first entire year before I started to really get down into the details. I had to really start hammering at him with, "You understand what this means?" because we were getting serious, and I kept trying to make sure that he understood exactly what it meant, because I was never sure that him saying, "Yes, I understand," meant that he really understood and accepted it.

Clara:
Right.

Carol:
And those are big chances that you take.

Clara:
Exactly.

Cari:
Yeah.

Glenda Durham:
Have any of you found yourself rehearsing what you want to say?

[everybody laughs]

Everyone:
Oh yeah! All the time!

Cari:
And then I never say it anyway. I've got it down pat!

[lots of laughter]

Clara:
This is Clara, and I've tried rehearsing it too, and you never stick to the script.

[laughter]

Clara:
I'm still looking to fall in love, and I really, really do want to be in love, so I'm not--I won't do the bar thing and to pretend. I just won't do that. But I don't tell on the first or second or third date. I wait until I'm a little comfortable with the individual, and then I simply say, "if you run your fingers through my hair" because I did not get all my hair back unfortunately, and it's been a long time for me. It's been five years and I still--my hair is not acceptable. And so I still wear the wig. I'm very comfortable with it. It's absolutely gorgeous. No one would ever know. So if he puts his fingers through my hair, it's going to come off. [laughs] So, I've got to tell. I've got to tell. It's just a very, very difficult thing. I think men need to be--they have to be educated. Ovarian cancer, yeah. That's a real deep one because there's a lot of education that goes along with that. Men, they've heard so much about breast cancer until they have just a little bit of idea. But at the same time, they really don't know how difficult of an emotional thing it can be once they really get into that relationship with you.

Glenda Durham:
Well, as you deal with this, have any of you used humor as part of the way to break the ice around this?

Cari:
This is Cari, and yeah, that--I typically tend to do that. Probably a defense mechanism of my own, but that kind of complicates it though, a little bit--

Others:
Mm-hmm.

Cari:
I mean, on one hand I think it makes it easier, but then on the other hand it makes it seem like it's really not that big of a deal, and I think that a lot of men have taken that cue and treated it as such and the bottom line is it really is, and it still is and it's hard. Cancer has really raised the bar, I think, of what I am looking for.

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Cari:
I discovered that I had more strength than I ever knew, or thought was possible, and I need to find that amount in a man also. And when he comes around, he's going to be somebody who is going to see the humor, but also is going to be able to realize what's beneath that.

Clara:
Yeah. And this is Clara. I think after the initial wears off, and you really can sit and hold each other with clothes and without clothes, then you can probably inject a little bit of humor as time goes on, if indeed he stays around and he's sincere. But the beginning part of it, and the stages one, two, three and four up to that point, the humor is just not appropriate, because if you try the humor it's really not what you're feeling. It's nothing funny about it, and you can try it but inside you're not laughing and you dare, dare have him laugh at you. So you pick your humor after time goes on and the two of you might end up laughing, and then the ice will truly be broken at that point, but it's hard to start off or to even work the humor in there at the beginning.

Cari:
This is Cari. I guess I'm a little twisted, [laughs], but I had pretty much kind of laughed my way through the whole thing because it was either that or cry, and I was just tired of crying and I--the people who are still in my life from that point, they made me laugh. I mean there's that fine line, you know? It's really about just knowing what a person needs, and everybody needs something different. And being able to--the men unfortunately they weren't able to read me. They gave me what they thought I needed, or what they wanted to give me and it wasn't what I needed. And this is why men say [laughs] we women are so hard to figure out, because we all need something different.

[laughter]

Cari:
And then it changes moment to moment!

[everyone laughs]

Clara:
I agree.

Cari:
But it's the strength of--I think it's the confidence that one has to have in being able to listen, to interpret, to really see, to really look and read the other person, the person who's going through it. God, I remember my brother. My brother was great through it all, and we would, we would just play practical jokes with the wig--

Clara:
[laughs]

Cari:
--and like we'd be in the back seat of the car, and my parents would turn around and he'd be wearing the wig, you know.

[everyone laughs]

Cari:
And we had kind of like my whole family one day, because I had numerous wigs, we all took one and put them on and paraded around. You know, just really bizarre, sick, twisted things, but it was what you're going through is pretty bizarre and sick and twisted also.

Carol:
[laughs]

Cari:
And I kind of felt when I find someone who can act like this but can still be that shoulder when I need it to cry on that's going to be the person. 'Course I haven't found him yet. [laughs]

[everyone laughs]

Dealing With Rejection In Relationships

Glenda Durham:
Let's talk about the underlying fear here, because all of you have grown enormously through confronting this disease and overcoming it, and you're wiser and you're deeper people than you ever were, but as you face this, you have higher standards for men. You have this delicate timing issue around revealing the fact of your cancer treatment. What about rejection? What have been some of the reactions that you have gotten?

Carol:
This is Carol. I had the strange timing of meeting someone a week before my surgery and dating him for--my surgery and then treatment lasted about five months, dating him for that time, and the day I went back to work he broke up with me, which was probably more devastating than if he had done it right in the middle of my treatment. And what was difficult about that was I thought that I was broken while I was going through treatment, and literally the day I felt like I was finally taking my first steps to be whole again by getting back to work and trying to get my life together, he decided he'd had enough. And what the big lesson that that taught me was that it wasn't about me. People can reject me for a lot of reasons, but it mostly is not about me. It is about something that they can't handle. It's them reacting to a weakness that they have in themselves. I realized that this person identified himself as the person who helped me, and at the time I had this very kind of high-powered job that sounded very impressive, and I believe that when I went back to work I don't think it was coincidental that that was his timing. When I went back to work, I think he felt like there was nothing he could do for me any more. He had held my hand and been there every step of the way through my treatment, and then he decided he couldn't be a part of my life any more just when it was going to get fun, was my interpretation. And like I said, the big lesson was, that wasn't--I couldn't let that be about him rejecting me, because that was a time where I couldn't put that kind of focus on myself. I couldn't put that kind of guilt on myself. There's a lot of stuff that you are going through personally, internally, and to take someone's rejection and make that personal is so much more of a burden to put on yourself than you really need. And most times it's about other people's weakness and about other people's problems.

Clara:
This is Clara and, you know, I agree one hundred percent. I tell you we are the strongest women that you could ever imagine, and rejection, we don't take rejection the way someone normally would. And we don't take it as a rejection of us individually. We understand that that person has a problem, and this is my personal feeling, but we were saying that person is the one that has the problem because they're not able to deal with the reality of whatever the situation is or the facts or the whole situation. It's something that they're not emotionally ready to handle or to deal with. And so we're blessed if we can simply say, "Well, okay, all right, let us move on," and not take it personally and not feel rejected. There is sadness. There is unhappiness and all of that, and we wish and pray that they could stay, but if they don't, I don't take the rejection personally any more.

Carol:
Yeah. This is Carol again. There are so many self-esteem issues tied up in dealing with any cancer diagnosis and treatment, because you start looking in the mirror and not recognizing the person there, and it's very easy to let the other people in your life kind of affect the way that you feel about yourself.

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Carol:
And hopefully you have people there to kind of turn another kind of mirror on you and show you who you really are, and that you're still this whole person as you're going through this, and hopefully they're enough to help you shield out the people that are trying to reject you or judge you or make you feel badly.

Glenda Durham:
Okay. Well, let me ask you this. How do you wish men would respond?

[everyone laughs and talks at once]

Carol:
This is Carol. That's--

Clara:
That's an easy one.

Cari:
This is Cari. Oh, am I interrupting?

Glenda Durham:
No. [laughs]

Cari:
This is Cari, and I think that any kind of trauma, especially cancer, it really brings out a person's true character and it's actually kind of an experiment, I think. It's very interesting how people do react. It's just such a window into who they really are, and a lot of times, if they're like you both were saying, it's their own issues that come to the surface. You know, there's this savior complex that comes out in some men. They want to be the ones to help you through it, and most of the time they're doing it not so much for you but more for them and, there's the ones who want to deny it. You know, all different types of reactions. I think what's most important is someone who's going to react similarly to you, and who's going to be kind of that, first of all, that person on your side, that team member, and who's also going to be that foundation who's going to let you do what you need to do and what you want to do. And if you're acting crazy one day, he's just going to-- [laughs]

Clara:
[laughing] --sit there and let you act crazy.

Cari:
Yeah! [laughing] She's crazy, but it's okay!

Clara:
This is Clara, and I agree one hundred percent. We want them to accept us for who we really are and all of the things that go along with the cancer, the change in our body, the change in the way we think. If we are honest and open and let them know exactly who we are and what we're really feeling, we want them to be open and accept that. We want them to love us. We want them to respect us. We want them to care about us. We want them to be that team player. Come on board and be the team player. That's really a lot to ask, but at the same time it's really not, because they're going to learn so much from us. They're going to lift their own bar from just being around us. It's just such an incredible journey that we're on, and to come along, and for anyone to come along with us is just truly wonderful. And what we're about doing is explaining that to them, sharing that with them so that they can love us. Love us and we will love back, and I think any cancer patient will tell you, "Hey, I'm extending love here." Because we've learned to do that and we've accepted who we are and we're willing to share that with someone. Come on board, be a team player and share love. That's easy if they would just let it be that way.

Glenda Durham:
Well, thank you. That's a wonderful answer.

Carol:
Can I add to that? This is Carol. I just wanted to add that I had a lot of different people react a lot of different ways to me. I had the person I was dating try to be the savior and take care of everything, but the best reaction I had was from a man who is my best friend who was there. He didn't do anything. He showed up at the hospital. He sat and he held my hand.

Clara:
Mm-hmm.

Carol:
If I wanted to talk, he listened. If I didn't want to talk, he sat there in silence. Ever since then--he just listened and he was there. If he didn't have anything to say, he didn't avoid me, he sat and said nothing. Just to be there, to know he was the silent support, and I think that's what we all need.

Cari and Clara together:
Yeah.

Glenda Durham:
Okay. Now, we're going to ask these final questions here, because these are issues that our friends out there are really facing. Clara, what have been some of the difficulties that you have faced dating after a mastectomy, and how have you handled them?

Facing Mastectomy And Your Post Treatment Sexual Identity

Clara:
It's truly the "tell" issue, and I'm a very, very likable person, so I don't have the problem with men enjoying my company and liking me and wanting to be with me. When I get to the point where I must tell before they touch--

Cari:
[laughs]

Clara:
[laughs] --that's the hard one. That's the very, very hard one, and whether or not he'll call again is the question. And some of them do, but most of them will not.

Glenda Durham:
What would you tell women that have had a mastectomy, but are hesitant to say "yes" to a date?

Clara:
I would tell them, say "yes" to the date and at the same time understand that you are not the person that you were before the cancer, so then you must be honest and you must find that comfort level, so that at that point of comfort you are able to tell and to share, and not feel rejected and not feel hurt and not be afraid, so then it's okay to go ahead and accept that date and have a ball! Let your hair down!

[everyone laughs]

Cari:
Not literally!

[more laughing]

Clara:
Not literally! But at the same time, understand that at some point you must tell all.

Glenda Durham:
Some of you have made major changes in your own bodies. How has that impacted your view of sexuality, and has your experience changed your views on what you're physically looking for in a man?

Cari:
This is Cari. That's a really interesting question. Well, I was diagnosed in my early 20s, and in college I was thin, I was just--I was cute! [laughs] And I think that with the cancer stuff I kind of expected it to be sort of this tunnel that I went through, and I'd come out and I'd just be me again. I'd be this thin, wide-eyed girl with hair, down to the middle of her back. And I wasn't. I was bald and I had gained twenty-plus pounds from the prednisone and from doctors telling me, "You're too thin! You must eat!" and from being a lot more sedentary than I ever was, and I was lethargic and all these things that I was but weren't me. It took quite a long time before I felt like me, and I still don't completely feel like me, and I have scars from the Hickman catheter and they show when I wear a bathing suit. I was actually just out of town with a guy I'm dating now and they're there, and of course I haven't told him yet. [laughs]

[everyone laughs]

Clara:
Oh, God!

Cari:
But anyway, I'm sorry, how could I ever think of being on this panel?

[everyone is laughing]

Cari:
I am the example of what not to do.

Clara:
You will tell!

Cari:
We need extremes, right?

[everyone is still laughing]

Glenda Durham:
We need diversity.

Cari:
Yeah, exactly. You guys are the sane ones and--

Clara:
Well, this is Clara, and I'll tell you, you look at your body, and your body is different and your thoughts are different, your mind. I mean, you're totally different. But when you look at your body with breast cancer, this breast, the left breast is still different, doggone it!

[laughter]

Clara:
So when I put the prosthesis into the bra, the special-made bra that you wear for comfort, and it's not cute and it doesn't look like the ones on TV.

Cari:
[laughs]

Clara:
Heck, and so you look at that, and you say, "How do I make myself as pretty as I possibly can?" And you do your very best. And once you do your very best, then that's all you can do. You work on yourself so that you're comfortable in looking at your own body, and when you get to that point, you can expect that when you show it they've got to like it because that's all that you have to offer.

Glenda Durham:
Well now, has all of this changed your views about what you're physically looking for in a man?

Clara:
This is Clara, and what I'm physically looking for in a man has not changed. I still want that tall, handsome dark guy with the cute eyes and all of that, but if he doesn't come in that full package but he comes with the right mind-set, then I can still handle that.

Glenda Durham:
Okay.

Cari:
This is Cari, and I think it's made me a lot more compassionate, well, towards myself and towards others. A lot more accepting. I really matured in that sense that I wasn't the way that I had been, that I wanted to be, and I had to learn how to accept it, and also I'm not going to do the crazy things that I used to do. I'm not going to diet like I used to. I'm much more health conscious. I think when I look at men, I'm not as shallow and superficial as I used to be because I'm not holding them to these unrealistic standards like I used to hold myself, where I had to be a size 4. Now it's much more comforting to be with a man who's just very normal, and he doesn't have to physically be spectacular because it takes the pressure off me, and it's more the acceptance that's important.

Glenda Durham:
Okay. We need to start wrapping this up. Does anybody have any last short thing they want to add?

Clara:
This is Clara, and I do have a short, just a short piece, and especially for breast cancer survivors and even ladies that are going through the breast cancer situation right now in their lives. Reach out to others and don't worry about being rejected, but reach out and let people know that you need them. Let men know that you need them in your life as well, and don't expect the world to be perfect. Everything comes with a price. You have to just let go and be as free and as open and as loving as you can possibly be.

Carol:
This is Carol. I'd expand on that also. I agree with everything that you said, Clara, but also if you could think for a moment the incredible strength that you have inside of you--

Clara:
Yeah.

Carol:
--to get through what you're getting through or what you've gone through, you would realize that the men that you allow into your life are there to enhance your life. They're not--you don't need them to take care of you and you don't need them to hold you up. They're there to enhance your life, and that way I think you maintain a lot of your inner strength that we all inevitably find through the process of going through cancer, and I think it enhances a relationship beyond this.

Glenda Durham:
Well, on that fine note, I think we're going to close. I hope our discussion has helped you with some of the issues that may be part of your life. I want to thank our guests, Cari, Clara and Carol, for their willingness to share their stories, thoughts and feelings, and a part of their lives with us today. I hope some of their experiences will help you think about and talk about your own concerns in healing ways. I encourage you to listen to the other discussions we have available on the website at www.cancer.org and on the phone by calling 1-877-333-HOPE. 1-877-333-HOPE. For the American Cancer Society's Cancer Survivors Network, I'm Glenda Durham, wishing each of you a great day, today and every day. Thanks a lot.

Others:
Thank you.

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