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Talk Shows and
Stories : Featured
Talk Shows : Divorce
Divorce
Recorded January 30, 2002
Welcome and Participant Introductions
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Dick Foley:
Hello and welcome to the American Cancer Society's Cancer Survivors
Network. I'm Dick Foley, your host, and today I'll be talking with three
cancer survivors, who all became divorced following their bouts with
cancer. As a cancer survivor myself, I'm pleased to be your host for
today's conversation as we talk about these issues related to divorce and
cancer. First, finding support and care as a cancer survivor when those
close to you don't, or for some reason can't provide it; the effects of
having cancer on your relationship with your spouse, and for that matter,
other members of your family; dealing with the combined emotional effects
of divorce and other losses in your life and being a cancer survivor;
dealing with the fears of cancer returning, and that includes the
hypersensitivity to any physical symptom or ailment, thinking it might be
a recurrence; learning to slow down and let other people help you while
you're in treatment; and finally, using counseling to help you get through
the difficult times.
Our first guest today is Pat, who is a cancer survivor from Missouri.
In April of 1991 Pat began to experience hoarseness in her throat. This
lasted for about three weeks. She then saw her doctor, who first gave her
antibiotics. When her condition remained unchanged, he sent her to the
Ellis Fischel Cancer Center in Columbia, Missouri, and Pat, am I saying
that right?
Pat:
Yes, you are.
Dick Foley:
All right, and they performed a biopsy. The results showed that Pat had
throat cancer, a malignant tumor on her vocal cord. Pat then had 32
radiation treatments over a seven-week period and is now cancer-free.
Pat was also a caretaker for her father, who died of throat cancer when he
was 51. Pat is now 57 years old and was divorced in 1993. She has three
adult children and is retired. Pat, thanks very much for joining us today
and sharing your story.
Pat:
Thanks for having me.
Dick Foley:
Our next guest is Laura. Laura is a cancer survivor from the state of
Florida. In 1999, Laura discovered a lump on her neck. She had it
checked at the health center at her college and was sent for further
testing. X-rays really did not reveal anything, so she was given a CT
scan. At that time the radiologist thought it might be a lymphoma.
Laura had a biopsy which confirmed that diagnosis. Her treatment
consisted of two cycles of ABVD chemotherapy (that's four drugs used in
this type of chemo). That was followed up with six weeks of radiation
therapy for the lymph nodes from her neck to her waist. Laura has been in
remission since then. She is the mother of two, a boy 5 and a little girl
6 months old. Laura is 28 and recently divorced, and Laura, thanks very
much for being with us today.
Laura:
Thank you.
Dick Foley:
Did I get the ages of your kids right?
Laura:
Yeah, well my baby is 7 months now.
Dick Foley:
Seven months now. All right. Our last guest today is Rick, and Rick is
from the state of Illinois. In 1995 Rick experienced some minor anal
bleeding that he associated with a case of food poisoning that he'd had.
He went to see his primary care physician who examined Rick and discovered
a mass. Rick had a colonoscopy and a biopsy that confirmed the mass was
indeed cancerous. Within two weeks Rick was in the hospital receiving
radiation and chemotherapy. After a week of that treatment, he continued
with 26 outpatient radiation treatments and another week of chemotherapy.
A month later he had successful outpatient surgery to excise the tumor,
which I assume, Rick, had shrunk by that time.
Rick:
It was shrunken very much. They said they did find some cancerous tissue.
They didn't know if it was alive or dead after the radiation.
Dick Foley:
Okay. Rick had follow-up chemotherapy for three more months following the
surgery, and has now been cancer-free for six and a half years. Rick is
53 years old, recently divorced, and the father of two adult daughters,
and Rick, we thank you very much for being with us also today.
Rick:
It's my pleasure to be here.
Marital Issues Exacerbated the Cancer Diagnosis
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Dick Foley:
Pat, let me begin with you. You had to drive yourself back and forth
rather long distances for your cancer treatment. Now, you did this by
yourself, five days a week for seven weeks, is that right?
Pat:
Yes, 200 miles round trip.
Dick Foley:
Yeah. That gives you a lot of time to think.
Pat:
Yes, it does.
Dick Foley:
What did you think about?
Pat:
Why I was going by myself.
Dick Foley:
And where should that support have come from, do you think?
Pat:
Well, I thought most of all it should have came from my husband. And you
know, I even had three adult daughters then, and they were busy with their
own lives, taking care of their own children. It was kind of like if we
ignore it, it'll go away.
Dick Foley:
Does that sum up their attitude, do you think, toward your battle with
cancer?
Pat:
I think so.
Dick Foley:
Do you think they were afraid, Pat?
Pat:
I don't know.
Dick Foley:
They never expressed that to you, huh?
Pat:
They wouldn't talk about it.
Dick Foley:
I wonder if that doesn't happen in a lot of cases where it's just such an
overwhelming subject area for some people that they can't deal with it
other than perhaps by denying it. Do you think that's what happened in
your case?
Pat:
I don't know. I thought if you loved somebody you wanted to support
them.
Dick Foley:
Well, that certainly seems a logical response, but you try to understand
these things, and I guess I'm just looking for some kind of an
explanation.
Pat:
Well, we had just recently purchased a tavern, and my husband's excuse was
that somebody had to be there to run it.
Dick Foley:
Okay. But he said something else to you rather interesting, too, and that is that he didn't seem to appreciate your talking about your cancer.
Pat:
No. He told me that I had everybody in town thinking that I was dying
from cancer because I had told everybody. Well, the people that would
come in to eat lunch knew that I had to leave immediately thereafter, to
drive down to take my treatment. And I said, "For God sakes, Jim, I have
cancer. I'm not contagious."
Dick Foley:
So you had, however, to rely completely on yourself.
Pat:
Yes, I did.
Dick Foley:
That had to have been a very lonely time for you.
Pat:
It was. I shed a lot of tears.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Pat:
When I got too sick to drive after a while, I would spend the night and
they would do my treatment the next morning instead of at 5 o'clock like
we normally did, and then I would drive back.
Dick Foley:
Pat, did you find anyone to open up to, to talk with, to cry with? Who
did you share this experience with?
Pat:
I had a counselor at the hospital that was never too busy to listen. She
even took me home with her one night, and we went and played Bingo.
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Pat:
She opened up her home to me. She opened up her heart to me, and I'll
never forget her.
Dick Foley:
Well, thank God she was there for you.
Pat:
Yes.
Dick Foley:
Laura, in your case, probably as in every case cancer can be such an
isolating experience to begin with, but you again faced this lack of
support from your husband.
Laura:
 Yes.
Dick Foley:
How did that affect your ability, do you think, to cope with your
diagnosis and your disease?
Laura:
Well, it made it harder, obviously. He wasn't very supportive, but he
also put negative thoughts in my head which made it hard for me, because
he would say things like "they're treating you now for this, but the
treatment they're giving you is going to give you another cancer five
years later", and things like that. So that made it really hard for me,
because it made me think about things that I didn't want to be thinking at
that time.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm. You know, I know it's true for Rick, and we'll talk about it with
you in a moment, Rick, but do you feel, Laura, that there may have been
issues in your marriage even before your diagnosis that were exacerbated
by your cancer?
Laura:
Yes. Definitely, I think the problems were there before, but with the
cancer it made it more obvious to me.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
And I thought maybe during my illness things would get better then, that
they would change for the better. Because it was a good chance for that
to happen, but it didn't.
Pat:
This is Pat and I felt the same way.
Laura:
Mm-hmm.
Dick Foley:
Oh, that you thought that things might get better, Pat, for you?
Pat:
Yes. We had problems before, but I thought maybe the cancer would maybe
put us back together.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Laura:
Right.
Pat:
But it didn't. It drove us farther apart.
Dick Foley:
It's interesting; in preparing for this show I looked back at my own
diagnosis in 1973, and divorce in my life followed in 1974. I guess I
connected the two a little bit, but I've never taken much time to think
about it much until this week. So, this is a very interesting discussion
for me as well, because my life has been touched in very much the same way
that all of you have been by cancer and divorce. Rick, in your case now,
was your wife supportive of you during this time, and if not, where did
your support come from?
Rick:
Well, she was--it sounds like she was supportive, certainly much more than
the other two callers here. Everybody's story is complicated. When I was
first diagnosed, we cried together and she did visit me every day the
first week I was in the hospital getting the treatments. But later, I
thought at the end of my radiation when I went back for the second round
of chemo, I don't remember her being there very much. There was also, as
it turned out later, there were other things to be concerned about.
Where she was and so on and so forth while I was being treated, but after
I was well again, we really had a second honeymoon. The issues that had
been part of our early marriage that we had sort of swept under the rug
and not really resolved were--I was able to forgive, although not forget.
But it certainly--cancer has a way of putting things in perspective about
what's really important.
Dick Foley:
Doesn't it though?
Pat:
Yes, it does.
Rick:
And we had a chance at a fresh start, but the problems resurfaced. I was
not willing to accept her behavior and things went from bad to worse and I
actually went into clinical depression for two years. But to answer your
question about where my support came from, my support came from my
church.
I found out that I had a lot more friends than I thought I had and lots
and lots of support. And through the talk therapy and the whole process,
the whole ordeal, I have made a lot of really good friends that I have.
Before I was sick, I didn't have any best friends. My wife was my best
friend and I was wrapped up in my family. After the cancer, I reached out
to other men that had been more or less casual friends and made three or
four of them very close friends, intimate friends, that we can talk about
anything and everything.
Dick Foley:
Right. Almost like family.
Rick:
Well, now that my children are grown, my youngest is in her second year of
college and the oldest has graduated, my church has really become my
family. It's the social--its part of my social sphere and like I said, I
think Pat said that you were talking about your cancer. That's something
I needed to do as well, and some people don't want to talk about it, don't
want to think about it. And some people really open up because there is
something there that they can do to help, and I think most people really
do want to help. So those people who have opened up and supported me,
we're all just much closer.
The Emotional Impact on the Children
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Dick Foley:
Rick, how did your children do during your cancer experience?
Rick:
It's hard to say. They were very frightened. They tried to be brave and
tried not to show any upset and, but I do think it did have emotional
ramifications. My older daughter was dating a boy, she was probably
around 16 or so, dating a boy she had had a crush on. And they had never
really gotten together, and then they started dating and they broke up
because she just couldn't handle the emotional impact of everything that
was going on. Then they did get together again later and dated for a
couple of years. But it's really hard to guess what all those
ramifications are, because right after that we got into all the depression
and the separation and whatnot. So it's been a real tough, tough
situation for the kids.
Dick Foley:
Sure. And all those things that are whirling around in one's head don't
all come out in words and in expression.
Rick:
Well, I'm pleased to say that we didn't have any problems of failing
grades or acting out.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Rick:
I really am proud of my children that they worked through that without any
ill effects from the acting out. I'm sure they have emotional scars that
are probably more from the divorce and whatnot. But actually my oldest
daughter, I'm very proud of, graduated magna cum laude from a large
Midwestern university.
Dick Foley:
Wow! Good for her. Congratulations! That's great.
Rick:
Thank you.
Dick Foley:
Laura, your children were awfully young and still really quite young. Laura, in your case, how difficult was it for you to continue caring for your children, who were quite young at the time of your cancer?
Laura:
Well, my son, I think he was
3 years old. Well, it was hard because he didn't really know what was going
on.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
And no one ever told him that I was sick. He knew that I had to go to
doctors and things like that, but he didn't really know what I had.
Dick Foley:
And he's young enough that maybe you're able to hide any fear--
Laura:
Right.
Dick Foley:
--or depression that you may be feeling.
Laura:
Right.
Dick Foley:
To hide that from him.
Laura:
And I think that it helped that my mom would help out with him in,
physically taking care of him, feeding him and things like that.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
So I didn't have to go through that. But he gave me a lot of hope, or
because of him I think I was stronger and more decided to fight my illness
and get cured. Because I had a reason to live on, because I wanted to see
him grow.
Dick Foley:
Of course!
Laura:
That was my main focus, and I think that helped a lot. And I just--I gave
him a lot of love during that time, and I still do, but I probably was
more, even more attached to him in a way. [laughs]
Dick Foley:
Oh, of course.
Laura:
He was--since I didn't have my husband to do that with. I got comfort
from him.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
Like I would hug him a lot, or I would just lay down beside him in bed and
I would feel good.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Laura:
It would make me feel better.
Dick Foley:
And it probably was a bonding experience for your baby, too, because I'm
sure he appreciated being close to his mom.
Laura:
Oh, yeah!
Dick Foley:
Describe for us, if you would, Laura, how you would--what words would you
put to the connection between your cancer and your divorce?
Laura:
I would say that the cancer was kind of an eye opener for me.
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Laura:
The problems were there since the beginning, and it was clear to me during
the cancer that it wasn't going to change.
Dick Foley:
So, it forced some issues?
Laura:
Right. So it was just kind of a break from all the other things in life.
The hectic activities that you normally have in your life, all the stress.
It was kind of a break from that. So, my mind was more clear in a sense
that I could see all these things that were going on, and I decided why
should I keep up with it--
Dick Foley:
Yes.
Laura:
--if it's not doing me any good.
Dick Foley:
But you made that decision after you were in remission?
Laura:
I made the decision afterwards, but it was only three or four months
after.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Laura:
I finished my treatment. I mean, I tried a little bit afterwards, but
then I just gave up. [laughs]
Dick Foley:
I understand. Pat, let me turn that same question to you. How did your
daughters do during your cancer episode?
Pat:
I don't know. They just refused to talk about it.
Dick Foley:
You couldn't even talk about your illness with them?
Pat:
No. If I brought it up, they would change the subject.
Dick Foley:
Oh boy. You really were just sort of cut adrift and left to fend for
yourself weren't you?
Pat:
Well, I kind of felt like I was. I wanted to ask Rick if his children
took sides when him and his wife split?
Rick:
No. They were very, very conscious of that. My older daughter and my
ex-wife were very, very close, almost too close, I felt at times, and my
younger daughter. When we got separated, we were separated for three
years and my divorce was just final a couple of months ago, my older
daughter was away at college, so she was able to sort of separate herself
from that, so to speak.
Pat:
Mm-hmm.
Rick:
My younger daughter was very rigorous with spending one week with her
mother and one week with me. My ex-wife and I both tried as hard as we
could, and I'm sure we failed many times, to try to leave the kids out of
it, but that's a hard thing to do.
Dick Foley:
Pat, you got your diagnosis in '91 and that same year you lost your
grandson to a suicide.
Pat:
No, I lost him in '95.
Dick Foley:
Oh, I'm sorry. It was a few years later.
Pat:
Yes.
Dick Foley:
But still, that gave you this sort of double tragedy to deal with. Were
you fairly well recovered by '95?
Pat:
Emotionally, no.
Dick Foley:
Yeah!
Pat:
Physically, pretty much.
Dick Foley:
So, you're in an emotionally battered state when you have this terrible
loss. Where did you find the strength to deal with that?
Pat:
I finally turned to God.
Dick Foley:
Did you?
Pat:
Yes. My grandson that committed suicide used to make statements to me
that I even thought about then and think a lot about now, but he used to
say, "How come the people that are supposed to love you don't?"
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Pat:
"And there's nothing that you can do to make them?" And it was remarkable
that I was feeling that way then.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Pat:
And he was feeling that way then as well.
Dick Foley:
Yeah, that's a tough thing when you see a young person feeling that way,
too. Feeling unloved.
Pat:
Yes.
Finding Support from Other Avenues
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Dick Foley:
Laura, when you went through your experience, where did you turn for your
support and what did these folks do that really helped you?
Laura:
Well, mostly my parents and
all of my family, my grandparents. They were very supportive. My mom would
stay with us, and basically she would take care of my son and the house and
the cooking, all that kind of thing. But also, as Rick, I had a lot of
support from the people from church. There were a lot of people just praying
for me at the time; people that I didn't even know personally but knew about
me from my parents or someone else. And every day I just found out about more
people that were praying for me and for my recovery.
Dick Foley:
Mmm.
Laura:
And I also, myself, turned to God and prayed a lot and got a lot of
strength from my prayers. I did a lot of meditation and yoga and things
like that that would give me strength.
Dick Foley:
That's a theme that seems to come up a great deal with people, Laura, that
they find great comfort in their faith. And I'm hearing it from all three
of you today.
Laura:
Yeah.
Dick Foley:
A question for any or all of you. Do you remember any important words or
acts that someone may have done for you that provided a great deal of
comfort? Pat, I know you said you had a really exceptional counselor who
provided support for you, but do you remember any particular instance that
you could cite?
Pat:
Well, other than her taking me to her home and taking me out to eat and
taking my mind off of it for a time.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Pat:
But, when I was driving back and forth, and this one particular day it
seemed really, really hot, and I'm on a country road and I don't know
where this state patrol came from, but he pulled me over.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
And he said that I was weaving. Possibly I was.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
And when he walked up to the driver's side of my car, he saw the X's on my
neck.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Pat:
And he said, "Ma'am, are you okay?" And I said, "No, I'm not. I'm really
pretty sick." And he said, "Isn't there anybody that can drive and bring
you down here?" And I said, "No, there isn't." And he said, "Well, I am
going to go follow you." Which would not have done me too much good.
"When you get to the next town I want you to pull in at the service
station there." And he said, "I'm going to be behind you, so it'd be a
good idea if you did."
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
So I did. And he went in and bought he and I, a bottle of pop.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Pat:
And he talked to me for probably a half-hour. And he said, "Are you
feeling better?" And I said, "Yes, I am." And he said, "Well, I'm going
to let you go, but I wish you would do something different about making
these trips." And I assured him I would; when I got too sick to drive I
would stay. And I did.
Dick Foley:
So, he was concerned for your safety?
Pat:
Yes, he was.
Dick Foley:
Yeah. Boy, cancer support from the State Patrol, that's a first.
[laughs] Rick, how about you? Was there any particular instance you can
remember from one of your church friends, something rather extraordinary
that one of these people may have done or said to you?
Rick:
You know, every act of kindness is extraordinary sometimes.
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Rick:
It's hard to say whether the support from my church friends, or just my
neighbors and my community--I'm involved a lot in my community, and those
people, too, several of those people expressed a lot of support. But the
other source of support that kind of surprised me was at the cancer
center.
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Rick:
I remember one of the first times I went in for outpatient chemo after I
was out of the hospital, or excuse me, outpatient radiation. I saw a
friend of mine there. And I said, "What are you doing here?" and he said,
"What are you doing here?" And it turns out that he had lung cancer. I
found that, the kind of support from strangers in the cancer center, there
is a relaxation there. I always felt some anxiety talking with people, I
really needed to share that I had cancer with people. That's one of the
ways I dealt with it.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Rick:
Some people, it's like slapping them in the face, and they just react
physically to it. And so you, whenever you talk to somebody about it, and
depending on what your mood is, if you're angry, sometimes you do sort of
want to metaphorically slap somebody in the face--
Dick Foley:
Right!
Rick:
--and sometimes you feel sorry that you have upset them, but when you're
with the other cancer patients all that anxiety goes away and it's really
easy to talk to people. I didn't feel that there was one-upsmanship.
But we were all comparing symptoms and reactions and home remedies to ease
the problems that developed with the treatments and whatnot. So I found
that to be a really unique experience.
Dick Foley:
As all of you probably have done, I've spent a little time in support
groups, both participating and talking to them, and it's remarkable the
openness that I have seen as cancer patients share with each other.
There's just--there's no pretense. It's just real good, honest
communication, and Pat, in your case that's what was missing. I'm
assuming your husband wasn't even willing to listen to you talk about your
cancer.
Pat:
No, he wouldn't.
Dick Foley:
So, what went through your mind then, Pat, when you saw others, other
cancer patients dealing with this surrounded by supportive family?
Pat:
Well, I felt like I was all alone in a great big world with a problem that
I was going to have to deal with.
Dick Foley:
Boy, thank goodness for that counselor of yours.
Pat:
Yes.
Dick Foley:
She had to have been just a Godsend at that time.
Pat:
I felt guilty after they gave me a clean bill of health, because I
survived.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
There was children down there, a little 6-year-old girl, that really comes
to my mind, that my doctor said he was going to have to go out and tell
her family that they had done all they could do. And it would go through
my mind that my children are raised, and I really believe I would have
laid down my life and let that little girl have a chance at life.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Pat:
Because she wasn't going to have. God was going to call her home.
Dick Foley:
Well, I've heard that expressed by others as well. That survivor's guilt
is not uncommon. Have you been able to put that behind you?
Pat:
Yes, I think so.
Dick Foley:
Yeah. Laura, in your case, was it your mom, do you think, who was the most helpful to you?
Laura:
Yeah.
Dick Foley:
Was it mostly because she was just willing to listen, or did she just roll
up her sleeves and really pitch in and help out?
Laura:
Well, she did everything. I mean, she listened to me, she comforted me,
she gave me a lot of positive thoughts that everything was going to be
fine.
Eye-Opener: The Clarity Cancer Brings to Your Life
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Dick Foley:
Did you try to get additional support from your husband, or did you
finally just realize it wasn't going to happen?
Laura:
Well, he wasn't completely unsupportive he would go with me to therapies and things like that, but it was hard for me to talk about my symptoms or the way I was feeling. I think a lot of the problem was that he didn't really understand what was going on. I don't know if it was denial like you were talking about earlier--
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
--that some people go into such denial. Because it was when I was feeling
sick or something like that, that he would get angry at me because I was
feeling sick, or I didn't want to do anything, just lay in bed. And he
would say, like, I was acting up or that I was making a show.
Dick Foley:
Oh.
Laura:
And that I wasn't really sick or anything like that
Dick Foley:
Did he ever express his own feelings to you about how he was dealing with
your cancer and how he felt about it?
Laura:
No. He never.
Dick Foley:
That was tough. That was tough for him.
Laura:
Yeah.
Dick Foley:
Maybe that's where he hit the denial wall a little bit.
Laura:
Yeah.
Dick Foley:
I know that my wife, who has seen [me] through a cancer bout, I know she
was scared to death.
Laura:
Mm-hmm.
Dick Foley:
And it wasn't comfortable for her to face the fact that I had cancer, but
she just pulled herself up, I guess by her bootstraps, I guess, and was
there. Rick, how open were your discussions with you and your wife about
your illness and what it would take to get you through it?
Rick:
They were very open, and I know that she felt helpless.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Rick:
And I know that she has an aversion to hospitals.
Dick Foley:
[laughs]
Rick:
I was with her when her father died from a heart attack when we were first
married. We'd only been married two or three years, and she had a lot of
anger, I think probably, that he died in the hospital. Nothing could be
done for him and she didn't like to go into hospitals. So, I know that
was hard for her, even though we had two births, hospital births, that
probably mitigated that somewhat for her.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Rick:
But I do, I'm counting my blessings here, hearing these other two stories,
that my wife was a lot more supportive than their spouses, and I guess I
should be more thankful for that.
Dick Foley:
Yeah, it sounds like in Pat's case the rug was literally pulled out from
under her. When in all of this, Pat, what was the point when you knew
your marital relationship was over?
Pat:
After I lost my grandson.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Pat:
Because my husband was not good to him either. He was my second husband.
He was not the father of my children or my grandchildren.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
And he did not treat that particular grandchild good at all. He did the
rest of them but he didn't him. And I was remembering when I went down
for my biopsy. My three daughters took me down because I had to be there
at, like, 6:30 in the morning.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Pat:
And later on, when I said something to him about this, he said he didn't
go because I didn't ask him. And I said, "Well, you are my husband. I
didn't feel like you needed an invitation." And when I left the hospital,
he wouldn't even come and get me.
Dick Foley:
Looking back on it now, would you describe his attitude as a little
selfish?
Pat:
Yes.
Dick Foley:
And if, Pat, you had to draw the connection, or describe the connection
between your cancer and your divorce, how would you describe it?
Pat:
I think it played a big role in it as far as forgiving him, and it was not
a good marriage.
Dick Foley:
But your dealing with cancer seemed to bring out some of his true
colors--
Pat:
Yes, it did.
Dick Foley:
--and reveal to you that he wasn't going to be the supportive husband that
you needed.
Pat:
I think maybe it took that, for me to quit making excuses for him. But
when I lost the grandson, it was like the final straw, because he would
not let me talk about him. I have 17 basketball tapes of him and I played
them, often, to get through the grief, and that was a no-no as well.
Dick Foley:
Boy.
Pat:
So I decided I was on my own, I might as well be on my own.
Dick Foley:
So, that leads me to this question, Pat. Through all this, have you
discovered strength in yourself that you maybe didn't even know you
had?
Pat:
My strength, I know now, came from God. He had a purpose for me. I'm
active in church. I'm active in a youth group, and if I can give a
portion of my time to the community and to the children, maybe somebody
else won't suffer the loss that I did.
Dick Foley:
Well, keep up that good work. I think you'll feel the benefits of that for
yourself, too.
Pat:
Thank you.
Dick Foley:
Now, Rick, in your case, it seems as though cancer may have been a
catalyst, it was less directly related, perhaps, to your divorce. Is that
a correct assumption?
Rick:
Probably less so. I think there are a lot of similarities that the other
two ladies have talked about. I feel I had a good marriage. We were
married for 33 years. The best part of the marriage was focused around
the children. And as they got up to college age, I think my ex-wife and I
were both sort of concerned about what our marriage was going to be like
when the kids were no longer there. And I, on a couple of occasions, I
have [viewed] cancer as being a gift. That it has not just opened my
eyes, but it's allowed me to move on. And there was certainly a lot of
suffering involved in everything that happened since my diagnosis. But
having gotten through that successfully, and having precipitated a good
divorce, or as you say, a catalyst for the divorce, my life is a whole lot
better now, having gone through all of that. It's more focused on what's
good about my life and good about life in general.
I feel like the issues that were a problem in my marriage was like an
abscessed tooth. It was a sort of a dull ache that wasn't enough to make
you really sick or enough to make you--not to ruin you, but it was just
always there, stealing your vitality. Having now being divorced that has
sort of been removed from my life and I'm sure that the last half of my
life is going to be even better than the first half.
Dick Foley:
It's interesting, Rick, how many people who have not been through a cancer
experience find it surprising that we survivors talk about cancer as being
some sort of a gift, and this experience with cancer has had some positive
impacts in our lives. But it does provide some clarity, doesn't it?
Rick:
Yes, and I think it really makes you think a lot about the whole issue of
suffering. I think everybody wonders about that, and people accuse God of
allowing suffering. And I think if you've really suffered from, whether
it's cancer or whatever it is, if its genuine suffering and it doesn't
make you totally depressed because as I said before, I had two years of
clinical depression and--
Dick Foley:
Yes.
Rick:
--it was, that was worse than the cancer, actually. But having come
through that, it's more than just reordering your priorities. It's
really--it makes you much more appreciative of the small things and of
what you do have and less worried about what you have lost. Because
divorce is a loss; a loss of your family, a loss of the love that you had.
That love was a very big part of my life, and I was grieving the loss of
that. I'm very fortunate that I don't have any major losses, physical
losses from the cancer, from the treatment. So I can look around and see
people who have lost a lot more. I look around and see friends who have
melanomas--
Dick Foley:
Yes.
Rick:
--and much more serious things than I had. I have a new understanding of
suffering, as being a positive thing in life to give value to life and
importance to life, that you get all wrapped up in the mundane little
things of life and you let life go by and you don't really enjoy it.
You're just trying to get through to payday or whatever it is, and once
you've had cancer, you realize there's a whole lot more than just waiting
for the next payday.
Recurrence: Doing What You Can Do, Leaving the Rest to God
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Dick Foley:
Your expressions, too, I think contain some tribute to your strong faith.
I think some of your attitude must have grown from that. Bring us, Rick,
to the present day, and then I'll turn to the others as well for this
question, because I think for all cancer survivors there is that fear of
recurrence. How long have you been cancer-free, Rick?
Rick:
Six and a half years.
Dick Foley:
And how much of an issue is that fear of a cancer recurrence for you?
Rick:
One of the benefits of having gone through the cancer is that it's gotten
me into the gym.
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Rick:
I've been going to the gym for six years now. And after I, well, during
my treatment, I'd been getting more sedentary and my weight was creeping
up. And being basically, on your back for about a year because of the
radiation, all of my muscles were totally atrophied and my weight was up
as high as it ever had been. I've always struggled somewhat with weight,
I've tried to never let it get too far, but I went from 200 pounds to 160
pounds.
Dick Foley:
So, you're taking better care of yourself?
Rick:
Much better care.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Rick:
I'm fit in all the ways that they measure you.
Dick Foley:
Has time been a factor in, say, diminishing the fears of recurrence?
Rick:
Partly time. I feel that we all have the same chance whether we've had
cancer or not. We're all pretty much in the same boat, and in six months
time we could all be diagnosed with a cancer, whether we've had it or not.
I have a friend who survived pancreatic cancer, which is very unusual.
Dick Foley:
Yes, it is.
Rick:
And then died of another cancer two years later.
Dick Foley:
Hmm.
Rick:
So I know that that is possible. I think being healthy, having a healthy
lifestyle, eating healthy is about all you can do, and you have to leave
the rest up to God.
Dick Foley:
And that's great advice to share with people. I couldn't be more
supportive of that. Laura, how about you? How long cancer-free now?
Laura:
Two years.
Dick Foley:
And what's your attitude with respect to the chance your cancer might come
back?
Laura:
Well, I try to keep a positive mind about it, but as Rick said, I take
care of myself. I work out. I go to the gym. I try to eat healthy
foods.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
And well, like he said it's whatever God's will is. [laughs]
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
At the end
Dick Foley:
But we have to do our part as well.
Laura:
Right.
Dick Foley:
Do you go in for regular medical follow-up checks?
Laura:
Sure, yes. I go every four months.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Laura:
And make sure that all my blood tests are fine, and they still do CT scans
once a year to make sure there is no node, but other than that, well, like
I said, I try to take care of myself as much as I can with having two
small children, sometimes it's not that easy. [laughs]
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
But I try the best I can.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Laura:
And I just have a lot of faith in God, too.
Dick Foley:
All right. Pat, how about you and specific to the issue of fear of cancer
recurrence?
Pat:
I'm really pretty different than the other two.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
I've been cancer-free now for eleven years.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Pat:
I very seldom think about it.
Dick Foley:
Good for you, even having lost your dad to the same cancer.
Pat:
True.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Pat:
I can't really say I take care of myself. I have rheumatoid arthritis.
I don't walk, I don't swim. I raise African violets. That takes up quite
a bit of my time. I have a dog and a cat.
Dick Foley:
Uh-huh.
Pat:
I do not go for check-ups and I just learned to live one day at a
time.
Dick Foley:
Now, have you just made a conscious choice not to go for check ups,
or--?
Pat:
Well, I was running up bills that I couldn't pay.
Dick Foley:
Uh-huh.
Pat:
And they were hounding me terribly. I maxed out three credit cards to get
them off my back. And I just quit going, quit thinking about it.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
I'm here by the grace of God, and I'll stay here by the grace of God, and
when he gets ready for me, well I'm ready to go.
Dick Foley:
So, how would you describe your level of health today?
Pat:
It's probably not good. But it's not all that bad.
Dick Foley:
Okay. And day to day life is okay for you, I assume.
Pat:
Yes.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Pat:
Yes.
Rick:
Dick, this is Rick, and I had an experience that did the most for me for
getting over the fear of getting cancer again, and that was I discovered a
lump in my hip--
Dick Foley:
Ah-ha!
Rick:
--and I'd had a real bad weekend. I went to see my oncologist, and he
palpated it and thought, "Well, don't know, can't really say." And I was
due for a check-up with my surgeon the next week, so he said, "Well just
have him do a biopsy of it, and we'll find out if you have to worry about
it or not."
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Rick:
So, that was on a Friday, and like I said, I had a real bad weekend and
was sure I had cancer again. In fact I had had an ache and a pain in my
back a couple months before and had gotten x-rays, and that was fine and
it sort of put everything out of my mind. But this time with the lump, I
went back to see the surgeon then, and he said, "Well, we'll take care of
it." And he said, "No, we'll just cut it out right now. Lie down." And
again, I immediately thought, "He knows its cancer so he's got to take it
out."
Dick Foley:
Right.
Rick:
So, he started cutting it out, and when he pulled it out I asked to look
at, and I said, "What do you think?" And he said, "I don't know. I've
never seen anything like it before!"
Dick Foley:
[laughs]
Rick:
Which I figure was probably pretty good, because he'd probably seen every
kind of cancer you could pull out of somebody.
Dick Foley:
One would hope.
Rick:
Yeah. So, he sent it off to pathology, and every day was a different
emotion for me. You know, the first day I was just scared to death, the
next day I was stoic, and the day after that it was questioning, and I
just went--it took five days to get the report back, which was a real
blessing.
Dick Foley:
But maybe the longest five days of your life.
Rick:
Oh, it was terribly long, but it was what I needed to get sort of control
of my emotions, and towards the end it was, "Well, if it is cancer, I'll
just do the treatments again, and if it's not, then life will go on."
And that's pretty much the way I've been able to maintain a fairly even
keel ever since that. Because at that time I really, really did not want
to do the treatments again.
Dick Foley:
I can't say I blame you.
Rick:
They were just so, so brutal.
Dick Foley:
Yeah. Laura, how do you react if you have a little symptom or some kind
of a physical ailment that you don't quite understand, don't quite know
what it is?
Laura:
Mmm--well, I don't think
I've had--
Dick Foley:
You haven't had any of those?
Laura:
--any pains that I've gotten scared of. So, thank God. If I have
something, like, I know I had something that was bothering me that was
itching on my back.
Dick Foley:
Yes.
Laura:
So I went to the doctor and said, "Check it out, please, and if you have
to take it out, take it out." But that's about it. I mean, I had to have
a mole removed about two months ago because it was--it wasn't cancerous,
but it could become cancerous.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
So I just said, "Take, take it all out! I don't care!" I just don't want
to have to deal with cancer again. But I'm always on the lookout for
things like that, because I know I had a lot of radiation in a big area of
my upper body.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
So I go to the dermatologist like every six months and get a scan, a
visual scan over my moles.
Dick Foley:
Right. So it's safe to say, for you, that this cancer has made you much
more aware and conscious of your own health.
Laura:
Yeah. I stay away from the sun.
Dick Foley:
Yes.
Laura:
I try to stay away from places where there's a lot of smoke or people that
smoke, things like that.
Dick Foley:
Right.
Laura:
That you--maybe you're not that conscious about before.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
Yeah.
Dick Foley:
Pat?
Pat:
Yes?
Dick Foley:
Do you have regular worries that you could have a relapse and have a
recurrence of cancer?
Pat:
No, I don't think so.
Dick Foley:
Okay, you pretty well put it out of your mind at this point?
Pat:
Yes, I did.
Dick Foley:
Okay.
Rick:
I have a question of you, Pat.
Pat:
Yes.
Rick:
Has time changed that? You know, when you were close to your experience,
did you have those thoughts of recurrence?
Pat:
Yes, I did.
Rick:
So, there's hope for us. [laughs]
Pat:
I think when I lost the grandson my priorities changed.
Dick Foley:
Yes!
Laura:
Mm-hmm.
Pat:
And I wanted to die when he did, and then life took on a different
meaning. It was less important.
Dick Foley:
Yeah, you had to deal with another huge loss. I mean, cancer certainly
represents a loss, but in this case you lost someone very close to you,
and someone it sounds as though you loved very much.
Pat:
I raised him. And with three daughters, he was kind of like the son that
I never had.
Dick Foley:
Right. And Rick, I would share with you and really with all of you, that
that was my experience, too. That time made a huge difference. Like
Laura, I had cancer as a young person. Laura was in her 20's, I was in my
early 30's when I was diagnosed with colon cancer. I think for three to
five years afterwards I was, I wouldn't say worried on a daily basis, but
I was very sensitive to any little symptom or something that might be some
indication that I might be having a recurrence. And that mellowed and
abated with time. So I think time is a factor.
I was cancer-free for almost 23 years and then had a recurrence, so
we're never completely out of the woods. But I think because I was
watchful and had changed my attitude towards health; I was able to find my
second cancer very quickly, very early. Treatment was rather simple and
very effective.
Rick:
Good for you!
Dick Foley:
Yeah. Yeah, and that was a great relief.
Pat:
This is Pat, and I think early detection is really important, and I think
that our body sends out little warning signals that we sometimes choose to
ignore. But I think as time passes it's not--it's probably in your
subconscious, but it's not on the front burner.
Building Helpful Relationships with Your Medical Team
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Dick Foley:
Right. Let's move to chat just a little bit with all of you before we
wrap up today about counselors, and I know, Rick, that you dealt with a
couple of different oncologists--
Rick:
Yes.
Dick Foley:
--and you found in the second one somebody who was a pretty unique and
very supportive person. Tell us about this oncologist.
Rick:
I was not really very pleased with my first oncologist, but he was in my
preferred provider organization. So I had gone to my primary care
physician, who I really respect and really feel well cared for by, and he
didn't have a real strong reference, or referral rather, to this first
oncologist, and I was not real comfortable with him. Then fortunately, my
second oncologist joined his practice, and I think probably, I was just
sort of randomly assigned to him. But I have a lot of respect for his
knowledge and the way he treated me, and I felt very much like he was
concerned on a personal basis.
I did ask him how does one stand there being an oncologist, dealing
with people and losing so many patients. The first one, I think, was
aloof. I didn't like him because he was aloof, and I think he was doing
that because how could a human not be aloof in order to deal with cancer
every day and losing patients? And my second oncologist was just a very
strong and unique individual and could allow himself to care for me on a
personal basis and still be my oncologist.
Dick Foley:
Pat, was it you who had a doctor who was a singer?
Pat:
Well, not exactly.
Dick Foley:
[laughs] But didn't he used to sing something to you?
Pat:
Yes, he used to come in when he would check me over, and he would sing he
was the cancer terminator! [laughs]
[laughter]
Dick Foley:
Okay. So he was trying to bring a sense of humor to his care that he was
providing you.
Pat:
Yes, he was. He was pretty much a good friend. Sometimes when I'm down
there I will stop in to see him.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Pat:
And he told me that that was very unusual. That most of the people
[laughing] certainly don't want to come back and visit a doctor in the
cancer hospital.
Dick Foley:
Right!
Pat:
But he turned out to be a good friend, and he's still there.
Dick Foley:
Well, that's nice that you have that ongoing relationship. How about with
the counselor who helped you so much? Do you continue to be in touch with
her?
Pat:
No, I don't, and I'm sorry I don't even remember her name.
Dick Foley:
Yeah.
Pat:
I just remember the treatment that she gave me while I was there, and I'll
be forever grateful.
Dick Foley:
Well, maybe someday you'll be motivated to look her up and give her
a--
Pat:
Hey, it's possible, she's still there.
Dick Foley:
Is she? Yeah. I bet she'd appreciate that, just knowing how her kindness
really touched your life and helped you at a time when nobody else was
offering much help.
Pat:
That's true.
Dick Foley:
Yeah. Laura, how about you? Did you have an opportunity or a need to
seek any counseling during your cancer experience, and if so, how did it
help you?
Laura:
I didn't really seek any
counseling at the time. I guess I had enough support from my family and
friends.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
I didn't feel the need. But I think my doctors were very, very good and
very attentive. And especially, I think, the nurses that gave me the
chemotherapy.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
They were really very nice. They gave me a lot of support and comfort,
and actually since I was the youngest patient they had.
Dick Foley:
Right.
Laura:
You know, there was something special about it, too. They took care of me
like I was their baby in a sense. [laughing]
Dick Foley:
Right. How old were you at the time of your diagnosis?
Laura:
I was 24.
Dick Foley:
24! Yeah, you were a young lymphoma patient.
Laura:
Yeah. And actually that's the peak age for Hodgkin's, the 20's, so--
Dick Foley:
Okay, so you were not typical, or not untypical.
Laura:
Right.
Dick Foley:
Still, that's a tender age to be going through that kind of a
challenge.
Laura:
Definitely.
Dick Foley:
And I would imagine that a lot of the other cancer patients you saw in the
hospital setting were much older than yourself.
Laura:
Yes. Yeah, I was definitely the youngest by far.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
And you know, I could see sometimes the look in their face, that surprise
to see me there.
Dick Foley:
Do you remember one particular member of your health care team who seemed
particularly strong in terms of their ability to communicate with you and
to be supportive of you during your treatment?
Laura:
Yes. I think my radiation oncologist was very, very good. She was, you
know, she was always on top of everyone.
Dick Foley:
Sure.
Laura:
And she was sure, she always wanted to make sure I was getting the best
treatment and that everyone was doing everything right.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
You know, she was always very, I think very honest with everything, and I
really appreciated that, too.
Dick Foley:
And Pat has maintained this longstanding relationship with her doctor
there in Columbia, and Rick, you've shared with us that you had that
oncologist relationship that you felt very good about. He was obviously a
good communicator.
Rick:
Yes. I still am doing yearly check-ups with him. I always look forward
to seeing him.
Moving on; a New Life after Cancer
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Dick Foley:
So just kind of in summation a little bit, maybe we can begin with you,
Rick. Divorce and cancer don't always go together, but they can, and in
some cases the experience of cancer brings us to a different place in our
lives in terms of evaluating what's good and what may not be so good about
a marital relationship. Is that fair?
Rick:
I think my wife, my ex-wife sort of looked at her life, and I think,
obviously you think a lot about mortality when you or somebody close to
you has cancer. I think she decided that she didn't want to live the rest
of her life the way she had been living it in our marriage. And you know,
we tried for a while to reconcile that.
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Rick:
But, I know exactly when we made the decision that we were not going to
get back together, and I've said that we had a three-year separation, as I
mentioned.
Dick Foley:
Yes.
Rick:
And the first year I resisted, the second year I accepted it, and the
third year I embraced it. So, the actual divorce for me was fairly easy.
I had gone through the grieving and was anticipating it, and I'm happy to
say that she respected the agreements we made for the most part for a
final settlement. She was very honorable about that. I'm looking forward
to a much better life now, and I hope that she can do the same.
Dick Foley:
And your relationships with your daughters have remained strong?
Rick:
Yes. It's been evolving since they've sort of literally and figuratively
graduated into adulthood now. During that time, the time of our
difficulties and I can sort of put my entire life pre-cancer into a drawer
or a memory box, and now my new life includes my adult children and not my
wife. My old life had the kids, as little kids, which I thoroughly
enjoyed, and that's gone for me and that's a memory. But now the cancer
was sort of like the demarcation between my two lives.
Dick Foley:
Yes, I understand completely. And obviously, Laura, there's a lot of life
left ahead of you and two young children to raise. But as you look at,
specifically at the cancer experience that you went through, how big a
factor do you think that was in bringing about your divorce?
Laura:
Well, as I said before, I
think it kind of opened my eyes--
Dick Foley:
Mm-hmm.
Laura:
--to the whole situation that was going on, going on in my marriage. So I
think it had a big effect.
Dick Foley:
But you're feeling well today?
Laura:
Yes. I mean, after I made the decision and we separated, I felt a relief.
I felt like a big weight was lifted off my shoulders, and I'm sure my life
is better now than what it was when I was married.
Dick Foley:
And Pat, to wrap up with you, it sounds as though you, too, have arrived
at a kind of a new perspective and sort of a new judgement basis for your
life, and things for the most part are okay with you.
Pat:
Yeah, I think they are pretty much. My ex-husband really thought that he
had prostate cancer last year. And I was surprised, but I was the second
person that he called.
Dick Foley:
And how did you respond?
Pat:
I wept. I drove him to Kansas City to the VA hospital and had him
checked. He had a prostate infection, and his temperature even got so high
that he was delirious. And he is now going to church. So maybe it took
things like that to get things in perspective in his life, and I don't
know, with some forgiveness, I think there's hope for us yet.
Dick Foley:
So you offered him the support, Pat, that he was not able to offer
you.
Pat:
Yes, I did.
Dick Foley:
Well, good for you. You're a remarkable person.
Pat:
Thank you.
Dick Foley:
Have you and he remained friends?
Pat:
We're doing better now.
Dick Foley:
Well, I'm glad to hear that. I am really grateful to all of you for being
part of our program today and being so willing to share very openly the
stories about your cancer and very personal aspects of your lives that
probably touch the lives of many who go through cancer experiences. I
really hope this discussion has helped a lot of our listeners sort through
some of the issues that may be part of their lives.
Once again, a big thanks to all of our guests for their willingness to
share these stories, their thoughts, their feelings and literally their
lives with us. I hope some of their experiences will help you to think
about and talk about your own concerns in a very healing way. I encourage
you to listen to other discussions we have available on the website or by
telephone. For the American Cancer Society's Cancer Survivors Network,
I'm Dick Foley, your host, wishing each of you a great day, today and
every day.
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